Episode 20
Reimagining Church as Family with Dr. Michael Brodeur and Glenn Bleakney
In this fascinating episode with Dr. Michael Brodeur, we explore the church through a unique lens: the family model. Here's what you'll discover:
Church Models Examined:
- The "Factory" Model: Where efficiency and numbers take precedence over relationships
- The "Fantasy" Model: When churches prioritize entertainment and spectacle over genuine connection
- The Family Model: God's original design for church community
Key Discussion Points:
- Why traditional church structures often struggle to create lasting discipleship
- How viewing church as family transforms relationships and spiritual growth
- The impact of intentional mentorship on future generations
- Practical ways to shift from program-based to relationship-based ministry
Biblical Insights:
- Scriptural foundations for the family model
- Historical examples of family-centered church communities
- God's heart for intergenerational discipleship
Real-World Applications:
- Creating environments that foster authentic relationships
- Developing leadership through family-style mentoring
- Building sustainable discipleship models
- Practical steps for transitioning to a family-oriented church culture
Whether you're a pastor, ministry leader, or church member, this conversation will challenge your perspective on church structure and inspire you to embrace God's design for spiritual family.
Featured Guest: Dr. Michael Brodeur brings decades of ministry experience and fresh insights into building healthy church communities.
Host: Glenn Bleakney guides this transformative discussion with wisdom and practical application.
Links referenced in this episode:
- Download the PDF Book for only $2.99- pastorscoach.com/churchasfamily
Other Website Links:
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Jesus Culture
- Catch the Fire
- Destiny Finder
- Vineyard
- Willow Creek
- Paul Youngi Cho
- Ralph Neighbor
church as a family, Kingdom Reformation, Michael Brodier, church models, fantasy church, factory church, family church, discipleship, spiritual parenting, church growth, Ephesians 4:11, fivefold ministry, community in church, church dynamics, leadership development, spiritual family, New Testament church, healthy church culture, equipping leaders, kingdom collaboration
Transcript
Foreign we're going to start and welcome to the Kingdom reformation session with Dr.
Speaker A:Michael Brodier.
Speaker A:We're going to be addressing the whole idea of church as a family.
Speaker A:And one of the amazing things that I love about the Scripture is it actually gives us real clarity on all the things that we should be doing.
Speaker A:You know, it gives us all things pertaining to life and godliness.
Speaker A:Paul said so I'm going to read from Ephesians, chapter three.
Speaker A:This is the new King James Version starting at verse 14.
Speaker A:And this is Paul's prayer.
Speaker A:Listen to this.
Speaker A:He actually says this.
Speaker A:For this reason I bow my knee, bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family, the whole family in heaven and earth is named.
Speaker A:And then he continues that he would grant you according to the riches of his glory to be strengthened with might through his spirit in the inner man.
Speaker A:Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge that you may be filled.
Speaker A:Look what he says with all the knowledge of God.
Speaker A:Now there's a lot we could say about that, but let's just acknowledge that what he says there, Paul talks about we have a father and our father has a family and we're part of that family.
Speaker A:And we have moved in many respects away from family into what Dr.
Speaker A:Michael is going to share about today.
Speaker A:At least two other models that really quite, yeah, they, they, they just quite don't get things done.
Speaker A:It's really not the ideal of the Lord.
Speaker A:So guys, just to let you know if you are joining us for the first time, this is the Kingdom Reformation and we're all about seeing the church be restored to the foundations, New Testament foundations.
Speaker A:And it's.
Speaker A:If you want to become a subscriber to the Kingdom Reformation, it's very simple.
Speaker A:Just head over to kingdomreformation.org and sign up.
Speaker A:If you become There's a free membership which gives you certain resources and access that is really good.
Speaker A:There's a lot of great content.
Speaker A:But if you want to really get your teeth into some deep stuff and the resources that we have available, become a monthly subscriber.
Speaker A:Normally that is $35 or $350 a year in US dollars.
Speaker A:Right now we have a special on.
Speaker A:It's $30 a month or $299.
Speaker A:I think it is actually it may even be less.
Speaker A:So just go to kingdomreformation.org and what we do is for those who are actually on the Zoom meeting here and you're not a member of the Kingdom Reformation community, of course you have access to the zoom meeting, but if you would like access to the video then please become a paid subscriber to get access to the video.
Speaker A:Again head over to kingdom reformation.org to get to become a subscriber today.
Speaker A:So today's topic, as I said, doing church as a family.
Speaker A:Want to introduce our facilitator and so blessed to know Michael and to do some things together in the Kingdom.
Speaker A:It's, it's always been so enriching and so helpful and today it's going to be powerful.
Speaker A:I know you're going to really be blessed from this.
Speaker A:And just a little bit of background on Michael.
Speaker A:40 plus years of ministry experience and he's involved in, in coaching fivefold leaders around the globe.
Speaker A:He's on staff at Jesus Culture, also helps lead the Apostolic network of Catch the Fire, has his own ministry.
Speaker A:We, we talked recently, Michael, about Destiny Finder.
Speaker A:Those of you who are part of the Kingdom Reformation, you go in and watch those videos.
Speaker A:Really good stuff.
Speaker A:And we have.
Speaker A:If you're interested in knowing more about Destiny Finder, just head over to destiny finder.com Kingdom TV forward slash Kingdom TV destinyfinder.com forward slash Kingdom TV great resource for discipling others and people in your church or your community, your business even.
Speaker A:And it's going to be very helpful to you.
Speaker A:Michael, you actually planted a church in San Francisco and what I've been told is it was one of the largest churches in the city of San Francisco.
Speaker A:So you're not just a theorist, you're a practitioner.
Speaker A:And you're not just someone who's, you know, read a few books or written some things, but you've actually been in the trenches and you've, you've put into practice what you're sharing now.
Speaker A:So before we dive right into the topic, it's going to be more interactive.
Speaker A:I'm going to be asking Michael questions.
Speaker A:Michael, just tell us a little bit more about yourself and anything that I miss that you think would be helpful.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:Well, I was raised in San Francisco by hippie parents and so my whole background was different than most heard the gospel.
Speaker B: chhiking around the Nation in: Speaker B:I, I went through some discipleship on a Blackfoot Indian reservation with people who came to the Lord through a personal Visitation of Jesus in a bar.
Speaker B:Everybody saw him.
Speaker B: oved back to San Francisco in: Speaker B:I was just one of the, one of the ministers.
Speaker B:I wasn't the pre, the lead minister, but I was part of that, that church for about seven years and went through all my training, got my ordination process in place.
Speaker B:And then I met John Wimber.
Speaker B: And that was in: Speaker B:We four people in our living room, we started a Vineyard church.
Speaker B:And that church grew very rapidly over the next 10 years.
Speaker B:It became one of the largest churches that the city had seen in a generation.
Speaker B:During that time, we had a number of seasons of great outpouring and revival.
Speaker B:It was a incredibly wonderful time.
Speaker B:And then after Wimber passed away, actually during the time Wimber invited me to be part of his oversight team for most of Northern California.
Speaker B:So I was over about 35 churches, began coaching churches.
Speaker B:We did many of the things we're going to be talking about today.
Speaker B:We did this in our local church in San Francisco.
Speaker B:And so it was a, a real amazing season.
Speaker B:Oh, by the way, I got married and about 44 years ago, my wife Diane and I have seven children and we work together as a minist team, planting our church and training leaders and walking that out.
Speaker B:We planted 14 churches out of our church.
Speaker B:About half of them actually survived.
Speaker B:The rest, you know, just, you know, went with normal church planting dynamics.
Speaker B:But anyway, after that we left the vineyard after John Wimber passed away and we were seven, ten more years in, in the ministry in San Francisco.
Speaker B:So 33 years total.
Speaker B:And then we moved out, started teaching in different Bible schools and overseeing churches from Reading, California.
Speaker B:I lived up there and was part of that ministry for a season and just an amazing time.
Speaker B:We pioneered destinyfinder.com and pastorscoach.com and so it's just.
Speaker B:But it's such a privilege to be with you today.
Speaker B:Let me just say Glenn Blinkney is just one of my heroes.
Speaker B:The guy literally is one of the most prolific people I know in terms of writing and producing material.
Speaker B:And so if you have an opportunity at all to become a subscriber and be involved in the membership of his ministry, please do.
Speaker B:Because it's some of the best stuff I, I've seen coming out in recent years.
Speaker B:So hats off to you, Glenn.
Speaker A:Well, thank you, Michael.
Speaker A:You're too kind.
Speaker A:And what we're all about, of course, is kingdom collaboration.
Speaker A:We realize that in this season, the Body of Christ needs to be fully activated and equipped.
Speaker A:Each one of us making our contribution.
Speaker A:You know, We've talked about the restoration of the fivefold.
Speaker A:And I heard you say, Michael, previously, we've made Ephesians 4:11 basically the end all.
Speaker A:You know, we've made it all about Ephesians 4:11, which is he gave some to be apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers rather than, you know, the next part.
Speaker A:The what?
Speaker A:The verses that are ensuing the equipping of the saints, you know, everyone being conformed to the image and likeness of Jesus, the fullness of the stature.
Speaker A:And then ultimately what we see is the whole body.
Speaker A:We become that body, that one man.
Speaker A:And so we're really passionate about this.
Speaker A:We are in a time of great reformation and I think revival is very important.
Speaker A:But we've over emphasized revival.
Speaker A:You know, Moses asked the Lord for two things.
Speaker A:He said, show me your glory, but he also said, show me your ways, the Hebrew word which means a pathway.
Speaker A:And so it's really important that we understand we need to know the ways of the Lord in order to see sustainable move of God's spirit, which sometimes is fireworks, but other times it may seem more like a slow burning fire.
Speaker A:And both are important and necessary.
Speaker A:And one of the great things that I believe is happening right now is the kind of decentralization, the, that just.
Speaker A:And I, I don't like the word deconstruction because it tends to have a particular philosophical or even political connotation.
Speaker A:But we are in a time of reformation and God is definitely bringing the church back to the New Testament roots.
Speaker A:And family is a massive part about that.
Speaker A:And so Michael, you wrote a book which is called Doing Church as a Family.
Speaker A:It's available to everyone who's on this meeting.
Speaker A:It's only $2.99 for the PDF version.
Speaker A:Just head over to pastorscoach.comchurch as family.
Speaker A:Pastors coach.com forward/church.
Speaker A:Family as family.
Speaker A:Church as family.
Speaker A:The link is actually in the chat as well.
Speaker A:Let's talk about church models.
Speaker A:Michael, you describe three types of churches.
Speaker A:There's fantasy, factory and family.
Speaker A:Could you explain what characterizes the fantasy church?
Speaker A:What are the signs of a factory church and why is the family model your recommended approach?
Speaker B:Yes, well, by the way, Glenn, you can turn off that notification alarm that comes when people join in.
Speaker B:So you just have to search for it.
Speaker B:But anyway, yeah, well, let me just.
Speaker B:With my background, you know, I started coaching churches when I was in the vineyard working with about 35 churches in northern most of Northern California.
Speaker B:But then when we left actually the ministry in San Francisco, I felt like the Lord said now it's time to step into the ministry I've called you to, which was something that God had prophesied over my life many times, that I was going to be a pastor to pastor.
Speaker B:And so in the process of that, we.
Speaker B:We started this.
Speaker B:We secured a URL called pastorscoach.com we wrote a number of pieces of curriculum for pastors, and then we ended up actually starting to work with pastors.
Speaker B:But I started to get frustrated because in all of my experience, having begun in the Jesus movement period when.
Speaker B:When all the way through, we did small groups, and we believed in small groups, we did, first of all, church in the home was what it was called.
Speaker B:And then with Wimber, it was kinship groups.
Speaker B:And then through the influence of.
Speaker B:Of Paul Youngi Cho, we did their version of home groups.
Speaker B:And then to Ralph Neighbor, I finally investigated a little bit of the.
Speaker B:The G12 movement.
Speaker B:And we were involved with that for several years.
Speaker B:So we.
Speaker B:I've had the ability to kind of see.
Speaker B:See discipleship in a lot of different contexts.
Speaker B:But, gosh, it was about 10 years ago, I started ministry more.
Speaker B:More frequently in Brazil.
Speaker B:And I started to see some of the ill effects of some of the dynamics of heavy, regimented small groups.
Speaker B:And I realized, wait a minute, there's.
Speaker B:There's something going on here that God's trying to teach me.
Speaker B:And so in the process of that, I came to this conclusion about these three types of churches.
Speaker B:Now, obviously, the church is such a vast, beautiful organism that has so many different parallels, different.
Speaker B:Different metaphors that can describe it.
Speaker B:But these three help me to capsulize what I believe is God's will for the church in this coming season, okay?
Speaker B:Because every church I went to, every church I was coaching, and I've coached probably about 500 through our different programs that we've done every one of them.
Speaker B:When I say, well, what are you building?
Speaker B:And they would say something like this, well, we're building a family.
Speaker B:And I'd say, well, how do you define family?
Speaker B:And they will say, well, family is a safe place to belong.
Speaker B:Now, let me back up just a second here, because John Wimber, before he founded the Vineyard Movement, was the head of what was called the Fuller Institute of Church Growth.
Speaker B:And he and Peter Wagner and Donald McGaveran and a few others did a massive study of the churches, particularly in the US And Europe and in Australia.
Speaker B:He studied all these churches, and he actually did surveys and collected information.
Speaker B:It became the foundation of what was called the Church Growth Movement.
Speaker B:And Wimber, when I first met him, he actually sat me down, he said, hey, you know what?
Speaker B:I've done all this research.
Speaker B:I actually have reviewed a 40,000 pastors.
Speaker B:And he said, let me tell you something, out of those 40,000, about 80% are doing this.
Speaker B:And this is how he characterized it.
Speaker B:They're playing basketball without a ball and without a hoop.
Speaker B:In other words, they're going through the motions.
Speaker B:Swish.
Speaker B:No, it didn't happen.
Speaker B:Yes, it did, because there's no ball, there's no hoop.
Speaker B:In other words, there's no way of really measuring the reality of their impact both in the world around them and the people that they're leading.
Speaker B:That basically churches go through the same motions every single week.
Speaker B:They they, without necessarily accomplishing the outcomes that they have intended to accomplish.
Speaker B:And this is what I would call the first F, which is fantasy church, that most churches, even though they say, oh yeah, welcome to our family, we're so glad to have you here, you know, we just love Jesus and we love each other, we're a family.
Speaker B:But in reality, they're not really a family.
Speaker B:And I'll tell you why in just a moment.
Speaker B:They're more of a fantasy.
Speaker B:In other words, they're going through the, the worship set, they're going through the, the, you know, announcements, they're handing out the bulletins, they're doing their children's church.
Speaker B:They've got maybe even some home groups, but at the end of the day, they're not moving the needle.
Speaker B:They have no ball and they have no hoop in their basketball game.
Speaker B:Okay, and so what is that all about?
Speaker B:Well, I've, I've done fantasy church as a leader.
Speaker B:I've gone through seasons where we couldn't seem to get our traction, we couldn't seem to move forward, we couldn't seem to improve or increase or impact the world around us in a measurable way.
Speaker B:Okay, that's fantasy church.
Speaker B:The next one I would call is factory church.
Speaker B:And that's the result of having looked at the fantasy, having looked at the Great Commission, having looked at the challenges of the kingdom, and come to the conclusion that, hey, most of the church, as Wimber said, 80% of the church, is just going through the motions every single week and not really arriving anywhere.
Speaker B:Well, that's true.
Speaker B:Let's make a difference.
Speaker B:And so what they do is either through seeker sensitive principles or through cell church demands, they actually institute a factory.
Speaker B:Okay, so it's fantasy, factory and family.
Speaker B:What is a factory?
Speaker B:Well, a factory church is a church that is actually engineered to produce an outcome.
Speaker B:But they've unfortunately engineered it on the wrong value system.
Speaker B:In the.
Speaker B:Let's talk about from the standpoint of the seeker sensitive church, it's all about numbers.
Speaker B:It's how many butts you can get in the seats and how many bucks you can get in the bank.
Speaker B:And those are the primary measurement dynamics.
Speaker B:And so they produce this.
Speaker B:In fact, one of the greatest and most humble things that, that I saw in the last maybe 15 years was a report that made by Willow Creek Church.
Speaker B:And you know, the pastor there had a moral failure.
Speaker B:And so that's tragic.
Speaker B:But before he did, he actually produced a review of.
Speaker B:They were one of the biggest churches in the nation.
Speaker B:They were coaching hundreds and hundreds of churches.
Speaker B:And they came, they basically did a, a survey of all their members.
Speaker B: I think there's: Speaker B:And they realized that not that a very small percentage had actually grown in their faith in discipleship.
Speaker B:And it was a tragedy.
Speaker B:It was like, oh wow.
Speaker B:And he actually published a public repentance about this.
Speaker B:So on, on that side, they had instituted great programs.
Speaker B:They were able to produce a consumer product that produced a certain kind of measurable, measurable increase.
Speaker B:But it ended up being a factory at the end of the day.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Then on the other hand we have like the G12 movement and some of the other cell church movements that organized an incredible program of discipleship and development.
Speaker B:But it was all unto.
Speaker B:It was a conveyor belt that ended up producing a certain kind of like climb the ladder success orientation that ultimately failed into an area of what I would call burnout and in many cases actual spiritual abuse.
Speaker B:And so factory was a noble effort to remove the fantasy factor.
Speaker B:To actually bring something that would really be tangibly fruitful.
Speaker B:But in both cases it kind of happened, I believe, with wrong values.
Speaker B:Well, what is the true value?
Speaker B:Well, the true value is family.
Speaker B:And this is something we have to go deeper on the scripture that actually Glenn read at the beginning that there is a family that for this reason I bow my knee before the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom the whole family in heaven and on earth is named.
Speaker B:Okay, well what's the family in heaven?
Speaker B:Well, certainly it's seen in the Trinity, Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
Speaker B:It's also seen in the incredible, you know, gathering of, of angels and so forth, worshiping the Lord.
Speaker B:But, but it's more than that.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's the, it's the cloud of witnesses that are now gathered around the throne.
Speaker B:We see this incredible family dynamic in heaven, but we also.
Speaker B:He says family on earth.
Speaker B:And you have to remember that God, in his desire to populate the earth with image bearers, he began with family.
Speaker B:He made Adam, and he went down the list.
Speaker B:Everything was good until he got to Adam.
Speaker B:And he says, that's not good.
Speaker B:It's not good that a man should be alone.
Speaker B:So he created out of Adam.
Speaker B:He didn't want to create a separate creature.
Speaker B:He actually took his from the one.
Speaker B:He made two.
Speaker B:And when the two come together, they make the next generation.
Speaker B:That family was literally the model of creation, but it was also the model in terms of redemption.
Speaker B:Because after sin entered the world, after we were exiled from the garden, God sought to bring about a restoration of what he created.
Speaker B:And he chose a couple, Abraham and Sarah.
Speaker B:And they gave birth to a son.
Speaker B:And that son had a son, and that son had 12 sons.
Speaker B:And that group of 70 people were brought into Egypt, and they came forth under Moses, and they actually, under Joshua, possessed the land.
Speaker B:And what we see is, we see family being the institution of God, the organism of God by which he chose the chosen people.
Speaker B:But it was all pointing forward to Jesus himself, God becoming flesh and dwelling among us.
Speaker B:And that ultimately is the culmination of all that God set in motion horrors of sin.
Speaker B:The culmination was Jesus himself, God becoming flesh and dwelling among us.
Speaker B:And Jesus actually developed family.
Speaker B:He chose 12 guys and a bunch of women.
Speaker B:They walked together, they lived together, they ate together, they.
Speaker B:They ministered together.
Speaker B:And then he extended that out to 70 others.
Speaker B:And we'll talk about that more in a moment.
Speaker B:But beyond that, then he ended up actually commanding them to wait in Jerusalem for a power.
Speaker B:And when that power finally came, after the resurrection, there was an amazing event.
Speaker B:3000 people came to Christ or more.
Speaker B:And Jesus had given a commandment.
Speaker B:He said, go into all the world and make disciples.
Speaker B:And we look at that through the lens of institutional church, and it looks like this kind of dry thing.
Speaker B:Go and win souls, disciple them and put them in classrooms, raise them up, and then send them out to do the same thing.
Speaker B:But in fact, if you read the Great Commission, which is all authorities given to me in heaven and earth, go therefore, and make disciples.
Speaker B:And you compare it to.
Speaker B:To the original mandate that was given in the garden.
Speaker B:Be fruitful, multiply, Fill the earth and subdue it, have dominion.
Speaker B:That it really is just an echo of what God originally told Adam and Eve.
Speaker B:It got distorted through sin.
Speaker B:But ultimately through God's redemptive process, now it's culminated in Christ that Jesus came to raise up a new Creation, a new family.
Speaker B:And he modeled that in his own ministry.
Speaker B:And he also commanded us to go and do the same.
Speaker B:Raise up spiritual sons and daughters into full maturity so that ultimately they would actually do the same with the next generation.
Speaker B:So let me just summarize really quickly, and then we're going to go into breaking this down and opening it up for all of you guys to, to kind of, you know, take notice of, but also write down any questions you have.
Speaker B:We'll have some time for Q A.
Speaker B:Okay, but what's the difference between a factory and a family?
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:A factory exists for the benefit of the owner.
Speaker B:I don't know how many churches you guys have been to, but, you know, it's easy for a pastor to say, welcome to our family.
Speaker B:It's so good to have you here.
Speaker B:God brought you here so that you could help me fulfill the vision he's given me.
Speaker B:My vision is so great, it's so awesome, it's so powerful that God brought all of us together so that we can see God's kingdom come according to the vision he's given me.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:That to me is a factory statement.
Speaker B:All right?
Speaker B:What a family is, is.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:God has called me with a vision to raise up sons and daughters, but I don't exist.
Speaker B:Or the, the church does not exist to benefit me.
Speaker B:The church exists to benefit the next generation.
Speaker A:Come on.
Speaker B:This is sort of the, the basic values difference between factory and family.
Speaker B:Factory exists for the benefit of the owner.
Speaker B:Family exists for the benefit of the next generation.
Speaker B:That doesn't mean I'm not important.
Speaker B:My wife and I have seven kids.
Speaker B:Our kids could not have been raised apart from us.
Speaker B:So the leaders that are existing, the spiritual father and mother that's in place, is essential to the well being of the family.
Speaker B:But the family doesn't exist for me.
Speaker B:It exists because God has a purpose and plan that ultimately requires generations to fulfill.
Speaker B:And ultimately family exists for the next generation and the generation beyond.
Speaker B:So that's the, that's the premise.
Speaker B:Now we're going to get into some detail about how that actually plays out, but I'll turn it back to Glenn for a second here.
Speaker A:Yeah, great.
Speaker A:Thank you, Michael.
Speaker A:Very good.
Speaker A:So how does seeing church as a family versus, you know, fantasy and factory change our approach to ministry?
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker B:Well, that's a big one.
Speaker B:So first of all, we need to understand that ultimately it's about the sons and daughters.
Speaker B:So the people in your church were not given to you so you'd have a workforce to be able to fulfill your vision.
Speaker B:That's the first thing.
Speaker B:If, if that's the way you're thinking, then you're already on the wrong footing as I see it, okay?
Speaker B:That ultimately we need to shift over to a different understanding.
Speaker B:And we can talk about that in more detail at the right time.
Speaker B:But really, most pastors with a church of any size, they realize that the reason I can build a larger church is because I, I practice delegation, okay?
Speaker B:Delegation is an important thing.
Speaker B:And we'll talk about this more in depth.
Speaker B:But delegation is not near as important as development.
Speaker B:See, let me, let me back up for a second here, okay?
Speaker B:When I've gone to churches and I asked the pastor, what are you building?
Speaker B:And they say, well, we're building a family.
Speaker B:And then I'll say, well, what, how do you define family?
Speaker B:They'll say, well, family is a safe place to belong.
Speaker B:That's probably a fantasy church, okay?
Speaker B:Because ultimately family is a safe place to belong if you're six months old, okay?
Speaker B:But if you're six years old and family is still only a safe place to belong, you're on the road to becoming a spoiled child.
Speaker B:If you're 16 years old and family is still just a safe place to belong, you're probably playing video games in the basement in your underwear, okay?
Speaker B:You're not doing your homework.
Speaker B:In other words, you have to understand that ultimately family is not a place to belong.
Speaker B:Primarily, family is primarily a place to become.
Speaker B:Now, belonging is essential, and belonging must stay a part of your family forever.
Speaker B:But if you think that doing church as a family is only about belonging, you're not a very good parent, okay?
Speaker B:Because right now, in current culture, you can see the bad fruit of belonging oriented parenting.
Speaker B:It only produces entitled children.
Speaker B:It doesn't produce true disciples.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:Now again, hear me clearly.
Speaker B:Belonging is essential, and it carries through the entire experience of parenting.
Speaker B:But if you don't start instituting developmental dynamics, even at the very earliest age, three, four years old, I sit my son down and say, hey, it's time to clean your room.
Speaker B:I don't want to clean my room.
Speaker B:No, we're going to clean it together and I'm going to sit with you.
Speaker B:Now, I could clean that room in five minutes.
Speaker B:If I sit with my son and have him do it, it takes 30 minutes.
Speaker B:But if he doesn't learn how to clean his room when he's three or four years old, he's going to have a really hard time, let's say, making his bed at 5 years old or doing his homework at 7 years old, or clearing the table at 9 years old.
Speaker B:You understand that ultimately the developmental process of discipleship has to be woven into the fabric of what we're doing from the start.
Speaker B:Now, most pastors will disciple somebody enough to give them a job description, but then they end up neglecting them after that.
Speaker B:So you'll end up with people that are.
Speaker B:Have a basic enough discipleship to maybe, you know, hand out a bulletin or teach us children's church curriculum or maybe even lead a home group.
Speaker B:But they never have enough discipleship to be the world changer that God's called them to be.
Speaker B:And this is what we want to change, but it requires an intentionality of spiritual family that we're going to be talking about over this next hour.
Speaker B:So back to you.
Speaker A:Yeah, thanks.
Speaker A:Yeah, great, Michael.
Speaker A:Okay, so let's talk about the key values or core values to build authentic family culture.
Speaker A:What, what are some of those, Michael?
Speaker B:Gosh, I would say the, the different things that I've seen, obviously.
Speaker B:And again, we're, we're just walking this out like all of you are as well.
Speaker B:But I'd say the first, the first issue in terms of kingdom values is intentionality and intimacy.
Speaker B:You have to be able to have intimacy with God and with your.
Speaker B:The people you're walking with.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:The next value system I would say that is crucial is intentionality.
Speaker B:I don't know if you've ever read any of the Stephen Covey material, but he, he pioneered this thing called the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People.
Speaker B:And he says, you know what?
Speaker B:Always begin every project with the end in mind.
Speaker B:See, spiritual parenting is not about raising sons and daughters.
Speaker B:It's about raising adults.
Speaker B:You guys understand it's a different animal.
Speaker B:If I'm looking at just raising kids, then I'm going to stop at some point.
Speaker B:But if I'm interested in raising adults, I'm interested in raising grandparents, actually, not just parents.
Speaker B:I want to raise the grandparents.
Speaker B:In other words, I want to instill the kind of input into their lives that will ultimately cause them to be the grandparents of two generations down.
Speaker B:So I have to think long term.
Speaker B:I have to think long view in my leadership dynamics.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:So I'm very concerned about those things in terms of my personal value system.
Speaker B:Intimacy, knowing God, knowing you, intentionality, knowing where we're going together, integrity, being the same person on the inside that I am on the outside.
Speaker B:Also the issues of, of interdependency.
Speaker B:I want to make sure we know how to walk together without harming each other.
Speaker B:But also I want to know your diversity, your Your uniqueness as an individuality.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:So I want to be able to, you see, with seven kids in my family, every one of them was so different.
Speaker B:So I want to know how to actually apply the principles of the kingdom in a way that is tailored to the individual, in a way that's customized to produce the process that ultimately has a lot to do with their personal sense of calling.
Speaker B:And so these are all the aspects of parenting.
Speaker B:But let's, let's talk about it from another angle, the corporate values that we want to talk about.
Speaker B:And the first one is, you know, we want to talk about this issue of connectedness, you know, that, that we're talking about the, the, the issue of, of love and care and, and individual community.
Speaker B:But then we're talking also about the issue of community as a group.
Speaker B:See, when a child is young, all they need is your love and care.
Speaker B:That's where belonging happens the most.
Speaker B:Up to about maybe 2 years old, but I don't know how many of you have been to a two year old birthday party recently.
Speaker B:But as soon as they open their gift, they're hoarding the gift because they don't know how to share.
Speaker B:If somebody takes the gift, they don't know how to forgive.
Speaker B:So we need to teach these different principles.
Speaker B:And the principle of community is the second most important one.
Speaker B:Intimacy.
Speaker B:First, I want to love you for who you are without any expectation of performance.
Speaker B:The second one, the second stage of development would be community.
Speaker B:The third stage is maturity.
Speaker B:So once you have basically your interactive skills down, I want to teach you how to manage your life in such a way that you can bring maximum glory to God in the midst of all the challenges and issues.
Speaker B:Your job, your workplace, your life, balance dynamics.
Speaker B:I want to teach you maturity.
Speaker B:And then I want to teach you responsibility.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Because ultimately, if I don't teach you responsibility, you'll never be the mature adult that can fulfill your destiny.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:So each one of these steps are indicative of certain values that would actually be in place at the developmental level of each of your spiritual sons and daughters as they're growing into the fullness of what God has for them.
Speaker B:So that's a, that's a quick summary.
Speaker B:I mean, there's obviously hours and hours of teaching on each of these subjects.
Speaker B:We're giving a pretty much of a blast and superficial coverage, but, but it's, it's, it's hitting on the main stuff.
Speaker A:So, yeah, I think it would be great to actually have you come back and unpack it more.
Speaker A:But definitely a lot here Michael, obviously, when.
Speaker A:When you think about shifting from an institutional model or a factory model to family, then one of the things, of course, is you.
Speaker A:You have relationship, you have intimacy.
Speaker A:There can be tension.
Speaker A:There needs to be responsibility.
Speaker A:I mean, if I have someone living in my house and they're just a roommate, well, you know what?
Speaker A:I don't care if I really have a relationship with them as long as they pay the rent and clean up after themselves, that type of thing.
Speaker A:But when church shifts to family, whoa.
Speaker A:Then if there's tension, if there's division, there's disunity, then obviously that's something that affects and disrupts the family unity and culture.
Speaker A:So let's talk a little bit about that in terms of providing both nurture and challenge.
Speaker A:So we're raising sons and daughters.
Speaker A:We're moving from a leadership or even a, you know, someone in.
Speaker A:In the factory who's just concerned about production happening, the outcomes, to a spiritual father, spiritual mothers.
Speaker A:Obviously, there's nurture, there's challenge.
Speaker A:And as you said, we're not just raising kids.
Speaker A:We want to raise even potentially grandparents.
Speaker A:But something you talk about often as well, I've heard you say it is the difference between delegation and development, because that's huge.
Speaker A:Can you just help us with that?
Speaker A:Nurturing, challenging, delegation, development.
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker B:Well, I'll just tell a story as I begin.
Speaker B:One of my sons, who's now in his mid-30s, he.
Speaker B:He came to me, gosh, about 10 years ago and said, dad, you used to tell a joke that really hurt my feelings.
Speaker B:And I said, oh, son, what was that joke?
Speaker B:And he said.
Speaker B:Actually used to say, you know, after dinner, you'd be.
Speaker B:You'd be sitting watching the news on the television, and, you know, mom would be in the kitchen cleaning up, and you.
Speaker B:You'd yell into the kitchen, say, honey, don't do the dishes.
Speaker B:That's what we had kids for, okay?
Speaker B:And so my.
Speaker B:My son kind of took it like, oh, wow, I'm just your.
Speaker B:Your slave to do your dishes for you.
Speaker B:And I said, of course, we never meant that that was just a joke.
Speaker B:He said, I know it was a joke, dad, but it still hurt my feelings, okay?
Speaker B:And I said, okay, I understand.
Speaker B:But you understand as well that actually the reason that I said that was because it, in a sense, is true.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:I didn't have kids to do my dishes, but if I don't have my kids do my dishes, they'll never become the adults that I've raised them to be.
Speaker B:Okay, let me.
Speaker B:Let me elaborate again, okay?
Speaker B:I take My son Gabriel, I have him cleaning his room.
Speaker B:Now again, if I only have him cleaning his room, then that's pretty abusive parenting.
Speaker B:If I make sure that we have plenty of time to have vacation or play ball together, play catch, or I have him, you know, tickling on the couch or watching a wholesome show together, that there's still a bunch of belonging time.
Speaker B:So let's establish that, that ultimately the issue of identity, the issue of connection is happening all the way through, okay?
Speaker B:But part of my responsibility as a, as a father is to make sure that I'm training my sons and daughters how to be responsible in life.
Speaker B:That that's one of the keynotes of maturity.
Speaker B:And so it's essential that I work with them.
Speaker B:So, yes, I didn't have my kids in order to do my dishes for me, but if I don't have my kids clean their room or make their bed or do their homework or do the dishes, if I don't have them mow the lawn or learn to drive, if I don't have them actually get good grades so they can go off to college so that they can ultimately move forward in life, if I don't do my part to develop them, then I'm failing.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:Now, most churches that I'm coaching have no plan for in depth development of the average individual in their church.
Speaker B:Like I said earlier, they have a plan to develop them enough so that they can hand out a bulletin or teach a children's church curriculum, or they can maybe be on the worship team, or they can do this or that, but they're actually not concentrating on development, they concentrate on delegation.
Speaker B:So a factory church is somebody who puts delegation up here and development down here.
Speaker B:But a true family switches that.
Speaker B:A true family says no.
Speaker B:My main responsibility, even if my son won't do his chores, is to develop him into the fullness of maturity so that ultimately when he moves into his, his future life, that he's not just playing, you know, video games all day long in somebody's basement, but he's actually really making a difference in the world.
Speaker B:But that doesn't come through delegation alone.
Speaker B:That comes through development.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:However, delegation is a vehicle of development.
Speaker B:And this is something that's important to remember is that, you know, when I had kids and they were doing their chores, if they didn't do them well, there would be some kind of consequence in the negative.
Speaker B:If they were doing their chores well, they can move into a higher level of responsibility, but also have more freedom in relationship to their responsibility.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:That same principle needs to be applied in our local church.
Speaker B:Because every single person you are pastoring or leading in your church is somebody with a God given potential to be a world changer for Jesus.
Speaker B:Whether that's in the marketplace, in the workplace, or in education, or in medicine, or in government, or in other.
Speaker B:You know, there's a million areas where they could be serving and making a difference and impacting people for the kingdom of heaven, but they're not going to get to that place of impact without a loving spiritual mother or father developing them, you know, sequentially into the fullness of who God's called them to be.
Speaker B:And so that's really what family is all about.
Speaker B:So when you say, oh, welcome to our family, come, most of what we mean by that is welcome to our orphanage, okay?
Speaker B:We call it a family.
Speaker B:There's 200 people sitting in the room.
Speaker B:Lay your hand on your neighbor and pray for them for 30 seconds.
Speaker B:That's not family.
Speaker B:Family is where we need to actually spend time with our sons and daughters.
Speaker B:Where we need to nurture them and teach them and instruct them and incrementally raise them up into higher levels of fruitfulness so that ultimately when God launches them into their, their vocational impact, that they have the tools necessary to impact the world for the glory of Jesus.
Speaker B:Okay, but the question is, how do we do that?
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:And this is where we can shift gears a little bit, Glenn, and talk about.
Speaker B:See, I'm not into destroying Sunday morning gatherings, okay?
Speaker B:I want to recontextualize your Sunday morning gathering, okay?
Speaker B:In order to do family, you have to have a family sized meeting, which means somewhere between eight and 20 people.
Speaker B:Once you get over 20, it's pretty hard to really provide the impact and care for each person.
Speaker B:So we need to reactivate small groups, okay?
Speaker B:And a lot of people are over small groups.
Speaker B:They just say, forget it.
Speaker B:We did small groups in the 80s and you know, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker B:We don't want to go back to that thing.
Speaker B:We just want to be part of a, a class or we want to be part of a, a short, you know, eight week group that goes through a book.
Speaker B:That's it.
Speaker B:You know, we don't want to actually do family because family costs.
Speaker B:It's, it's expensive, it takes time, takes energy, takes focus.
Speaker B:But you will not raise up spiritual sons and daughters without it, okay?
Speaker B:So you need a context for that developmental process, okay?
Speaker B:At the same time, if you desire to keep your Sunday morning alive and active, you need to put it in its proper place.
Speaker B:Sunday morning is not Your family gathering Sunday morning is your tribal gathering.
Speaker B:So let's distinguish for a second between tribe and family.
Speaker B:Tribes are helpful.
Speaker B:They're important.
Speaker B:They have value, because tribes are where you come together and hear your tribal chief and you sing your tribal songs and you do your tribal dances.
Speaker B:You know, it's where you hear your tribal prophetic people.
Speaker B:You know, the medicine man that comes and does the tribal thing.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:No tribe is important because it creates momentum and movement.
Speaker B:It provides context and covering for the families.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:But you can't do family on a Sunday morning.
Speaker B:There's not enough time.
Speaker B:There's not the right configuration.
Speaker B:You're all a bunch of people facing the back of somebody's head.
Speaker B:You know, you're facing a stage where a few people are doing all the ministry and the rest are spectators.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:If that's all you got.
Speaker B:It's not a very family church, okay.
Speaker B:Unless you institute family very intentionally through small groups.
Speaker B:And we can talk more in detail about how to do small groups in such a way that facilitates developmental processes.
Speaker B:Because the other problem, the reason we burn out on small groups because small groups were just basically a smaller version of Sunday morning and they did not develop people effectively.
Speaker B:So, anyway, there's a lot to be said about all this, Glenn.
Speaker B:I'm just hitting the surface, but I hope that people can grab what we're talking about.
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:So one of the things that I just wanted to address here and then maybe we can go into a time of Q and A, is this whole idea of family model.
Speaker A:Obviously, it's not without its challenges.
Speaker A:Absolutely, you've already alluded to that.
Speaker A:But it's easy just to, you know, the pastor, that is, hey, he doesn't interact with the people.
Speaker A:He's in the, you know, his office, he comes down, he preaches, then he.
Speaker A:He's gone back, whatever, in.
Speaker A:In his office again.
Speaker A:And we've seen that and been part of that culture as well.
Speaker A:But what are some of the challenges?
Speaker A:And that would really be more prominent in shifting from that into that family culture.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And what are your recommendations on how we actually overcome those challenges?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Well, first of all, we need a conviction that if we're called to raise up sons and daughters into full maturity in Christ and make that.
Speaker B:Make sure that maturity is not just a cookie cutter maturity, but it's.
Speaker B:It's really individualized to each person, then we need to actually commit to that.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:And it's going to be costly.
Speaker B:It's going to change the way you do church.
Speaker B:And it's going to actually, you know, it can be challenging, but it's ultimately going to be worth it because it will be consistent to the model that Jesus himself introduced.
Speaker B:Okay, how did Jesus build his church?
Speaker B:Jesus could have had the biggest megachurch in the world, but he didn't.
Speaker B:If you look at Luke chapter eight, here he is hanging out with his entourage, about 30 people, as far as we can tell, women and men together.
Speaker B:Then in chapter nine, he pulls the 12 aside and he, he begins to pour into 12 of them.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:More specifically.
Speaker B:And then out of the 12 mid chapter, he pulls out three of them.
Speaker B:So Jesus starts to create concentric leadership and in, in many ways really kind of reflecting the Old Testament as well, because there was, there was Moses and there was Aaron and Miriam, but then there was also there was the 12 tribes, and then also there were the 70 elders.
Speaker B:Well, he pulls out in chapter 10, Jesus in Luke chapter 10 ordained 70 others and commissions them to go out and preach the gospel.
Speaker B:So what we see is Jesus building concentric circles of leadership around himself.
Speaker B:This is a principle that really has to be in place if we're going to do family church in churches of, let's say, more than 70 people.
Speaker B:Okay, so let's say you have a church of 70.
Speaker B:What does that look like?
Speaker B:If you have a church of 200, those are the two major growth barriers in the body of Christ right now.
Speaker B:200 would be the other barrier.
Speaker B:And then of course there's future barriers beyond how do you build?
Speaker B:Okay, well, here's what I believe.
Speaker B:The big mistake that a lot of pastors do, they say, well, I want to have fellowship in my church and I want people to be connecting with each other and maybe even introducing discipleship.
Speaker B:So let's start a small group program.
Speaker B:And I'll delegate that small group program to Joe, my part time associate pastor.
Speaker B:And you're going to be over all of our small groups.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:And so we're going to have a small group Sunday.
Speaker B:Well, first of all, I'm going to go to the small group seminar and I'm going to learn how to do small groups in the sort of the trendy way.
Speaker B:And then I'm going to come back to our church and we're going to have a small group Sunday where we put tables out and people will invite people to the small group and then we'll invite them to the small group.
Speaker B:But what happens at the end of the day is because there's no culture of discipleship and development, then ultimately your small groups will fall flat.
Speaker B:All Right.
Speaker B:So let me say how we would do it.
Speaker B:And this is answering Glenn's question.
Speaker B:We recommend that if you want to actually build family, it's got to start with you.
Speaker B:If you're the senior pastor, if you're not the senior pastor, that is something you need to talk to your senior pastor about.
Speaker B:Because if it's not happening in the concentric core of the church, it's never going to happen fully in the perimeter of the church.
Speaker B:Church see Jesus led differently.
Speaker B:We see Jesus building concentrically, but we also see Paul building concentrically.
Speaker B:Second Timothy, chapter two, where he says the things Timothy.
Speaker B:He says, my son, in the Lord, take the things that I've given you and share them with faithful men who will be able to share them again with others.
Speaker B:Also, we're talking about four generations.
Speaker B:Paul, Timothy, faithful men, others of.
Speaker B:Also, we're talking about generational transfer of not just teaching, but of values.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:So our recommendation, and this is what we train pastors to do, is to actually re engage their core group.
Speaker B:Now, some of that will be staff, some of that will be just elders or other leaders that they've raised up.
Speaker B:Get those people in a room and spend at least a quarter with them, like 12 weeks, I would say even more if you can, but spend time with them, actually guiding them into a developmental process and really going over again all of your values as being a church that truly expresses family.
Speaker B:And then you actually become the spiritual father or mother to your 15 or 20 people in that group and you start really parenting them.
Speaker B:And that means that you don't just meet with them on a Wednesday night once a week for 12 weeks, but you're actually meeting with each one of them individually in the meantime.
Speaker B:Maybe it's every week and maybe it's every other week.
Speaker B:I don't know what your schedule allows, but when I realized that disciple making that raising up sons and daughters was my primary responsibility, guess what?
Speaker B:I actually changed my entire work week and I started actually having personal meetings with it between 16 and 20 people every week.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:And these were not pastoral visitations.
Speaker B:These were developmental meetings.
Speaker B:I want to help you discover who you are in Christ.
Speaker B:I want to help challenge you in the areas of your growth so that you can become the leader of tomorrow.
Speaker B:And so I spent time in, literally like I would have five meetings a day, in many cases four days a week.
Speaker B:And then Sundays and Saturdays are different, obviously, but.
Speaker B:But I just want you to realize that your primary job description according to Jesus and the Great Commission is to raise up people who raise up people.
Speaker B:But literally that, that falls to the, to the least priority in most churches, unless we're having to try to raise up workers.
Speaker B:And then of course, we'll, we'll give them enough time to get them working, but that's it.
Speaker B:Okay, that's delegation.
Speaker B:No, we need to become developers.
Speaker B:So start in the core, develop each of your leaders and then raise them up and send them out to develop the next generation.
Speaker B:If we can do that effectively, I believe we can truly convert a church.
Speaker B:Now it takes about a year and a half to two years to do this effectively.
Speaker B:And we have a whole system by which it can happen.
Speaker B:But, but it's not, it's not easy.
Speaker B:And it's easy to give up and just go back to doing western consumer church.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Orphan church.
Speaker B:But I recommend paying the price to make the shift, not just for your sake, but for the glory of Jesus.
Speaker B:Okay, so Glenn, I know we need to go to some Q A right now so we can shift.
Speaker A:Yeah, great.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:So, so much value there and what you just shared, Michael.
Speaker A:Thanks.
Speaker A:Okay, guys, so, yeah, questions, if you have a question.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:Andrew, sorry, got a question here.
Speaker A:Just drop it in the chat, please.
Speaker A:How can we develop effectively is Andrew's question.
Speaker A:Michael, how can we develop effectively?
Speaker A:I'm assuming talking about sons and daughters or leaders or both.
Speaker A:I mean, I know obviously it's developing the person, not just leadership skills, but.
Speaker A:Yeah, how can we develop?
Speaker B:Andrew Hayden.
Speaker A:Andrew Chen.
Speaker A:Chen.
Speaker B:Andrew Chan.
Speaker B:Okay, great.
Speaker B:Andrew.
Speaker B:Okay, let me just begin with this.
Speaker B:First of all, I think you have to have the intentionality because it does take time and it does take focus and it does take minimizing other things.
Speaker B:If you're going to be a people developing leader, then you need to minimize.
Speaker B:Andrew Chan, good to see you.
Speaker B:You need to minimize the amount of time you're spending on your Sunday sermon, on organizing your Sunday event.
Speaker B:You know, now you can still do a great event and you can still have a great sermon, but you're, if you're, if you're spending 20 hours a week on your sermon, then you're probably not going to be able to develop people.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:But let me just say, having preached probably 3,000 sermons over my life on a Sunday morning, guess what?
Speaker B:Most people don't remember what you said three weeks from now.
Speaker B:In fact, most people don't remember it three hours from now.
Speaker B:So I, I love the diligence to make a great sermon, but you can actually do a really good sermon in six hours of prep and still spend a Lot more.
Speaker B:A lot of that excess time really developing people.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Number one.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:But also, what was the question again, Glenn, is just the practical side of it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:How can we develop effectively?
Speaker B:Okay, so here's the other thing is understand the categories of development, okay?
Speaker B:And I'm going to hit you with something really hard right now, but you just write it down as fast as you can that the school system actually has developed how to, you know, a system by which they can develop people in mass.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:They've come up with five areas of training that they want to bring to every student.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:And that is they.
Speaker B:They've.
Speaker B:They've done, you know, reading, writing, arithmetic, science and history.
Speaker B:Okay, Those five areas.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Now they've added a bunch of other garbage as well.
Speaker B:But, but if you stay on those five areas, we'll have good students.
Speaker B:All right, so in, in, in our developmental ethic, we're trying to say, okay, well, what are the primary areas I want to develop somebody in?
Speaker B:Okay, so I have five I.
Speaker B:The first one is health.
Speaker B:The second one is head, heart, hands, and Holy Spirit.
Speaker B:They all start with H to make it easier if you're an English speaker.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:Health has to do with your spiritual health, your emotional health, your mental health, your physical health, your marital health, your financial health.
Speaker B:In other words, if I'm not teaching you how to be a healthy human being in general, then I'm not really making a.
Speaker B:A mature disciple of Jesus.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:So I need to address those issues, but then I also need to address the head, which is your, Your intelligence.
Speaker B:I need to make sure you're reading your scripture, that you're studying the scripture, you understand basic theology, that you're.
Speaker B:You have some street smarts, you know how to do this head, heart and hands, that you have the heart, the character of Christ forming in you.
Speaker B:And we build that, that framework around the.
Speaker B:The fruit of the Spirit, of love, joy, peace, and so forth that those things are, are relevant.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:And then finally the, the hands are not finally, but the, the fourth one is the hands.
Speaker B:So health, head, heart, hands is your skill set.
Speaker B:How are your people skills?
Speaker B:How are your relational skills?
Speaker B:How are your conflict resolution skills?
Speaker B:How are your teaching skills?
Speaker B:How are your supernatural skills?
Speaker B:Are you able to pray effectively for the sick?
Speaker B:Okay, and then the final one would be Holy Spirit.
Speaker B:How vibrant is your relationship with Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit?
Speaker B:How able are you to hear his voice and walk in his ways and do what he says?
Speaker B:Okay, Those five areas are the areas I pay attention to when I'm discipling somebody and developing them personally, and then I develop them through different levels of service.
Speaker B:Now, you may say, well, you're not into delegation.
Speaker B:Why are you using service as the primary sort of basis?
Speaker B:Okay, well, think about the school system.
Speaker B:They have those five areas, but then they have first grade, second grade, third grade, fourth grade, fifth grade.
Speaker B:Okay, I want to be able to celebrate somebody if they just know two plus two.
Speaker B:And they don't have to know two times two yet.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:But then I want to be able to celebrate the 2 times 2, even though they don't know 2x 2x.
Speaker B:You guys understand, in other words, there has to be gradations of development where we can actually celebrate somebody and not hold them to this super high standard of perfect perfection in Christ.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:So we're doing development sequentially.
Speaker B:And the best way to tell that is, what are you able to handle in terms of responsibility?
Speaker B:Is your family basically together?
Speaker B:That's an area of responsibility.
Speaker B:Can you teach, you know, can you be a worship leader in a home group, or can you actually be the home group leader?
Speaker B:There's a different level of maturity, and that maturity is revealed in the actual function of somebody.
Speaker B:And you'll know if you.
Speaker B:If you raise them up beyond their capacity.
Speaker B:Okay, so this is.
Speaker B:This is the framework we use.
Speaker B:And again, there's.
Speaker B:There's, you know, hours of teaching just on this one issue.
Speaker A:So absolutely, yeah.
Speaker A:Thanks.
Speaker A:And like I said earlier, Michael, it'd be great to have you come back and unpack this more.
Speaker A:So, yeah, everyone, just in the chat is the book, which is actually doing Church as a Family.
Speaker A:The link is there.
Speaker A:It's very simple.
Speaker A:It's pastors coach.comchurch as family.
Speaker A:So you can grab it for $2.99.
Speaker A:All right, one more question here.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:How do you know when they've advanced to their next level?
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker B:You don't always know for sure.
Speaker B:And so what you do is you bring them to another level of service.
Speaker B:Like, let's say if we took it from a.
Speaker B:A home group leadership standpoint, somebody comes in and they're just helping out, you know, moving chairs around or whatever.
Speaker B:Then they become an assistant worship leader, and they're serving on that level, and then maybe leading every once in a while themselves.
Speaker B:But then you.
Speaker B:You notice their faithfulness, you notice their developmental.
Speaker B:You notice their time in the word.
Speaker B:You notice their.
Speaker B:Their sort of relational ability with others.
Speaker B:You can invite them to become your assistant leader and actually have a certain set of responsibilities related to that.
Speaker B:And then if they Do a good job there, and the group is still growing, then what I would do is I would actually start talking about the leader, of becoming the leader of the next group we multiply into.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:So we're going to start to form a team around them.
Speaker B:They're going to work with their team.
Speaker B:We're going to guide them through a process of, of developing their vision and their values and their sense of mission, finding their host home, and then we're going to launch them out as a team.
Speaker B:I'll continue to oversee them and strengthen them, support them, but I'm going to watch them raise up others within their group.
Speaker B:See, each of these levels is a level of maturity being evidenced through their ability now to become, in a sense, big brother, big sister to the next generation, but then moving into a place of, of becoming mother and father to that new group and raising up those individuals.
Speaker B:Now, again, there's, there's a number of checks and balances here that need to be in place, but ultimately my goal is to get them overseeing three or four small groups because they multiplied them out.
Speaker B:And I'll tell you something, if you have a CEO in your church and they go through this process of development, they're going to be a better CEO than they would have ever been just getting their mba.
Speaker B:You know what I'm talking about?
Speaker B:It's like this is a way of actually helping people develop the software skills of the kingdom so they can be the world changers out in the marketplace, out in the different areas of society where they are actually walking out a kingdom destiny that is much higher than the average person.
Speaker B:Because you took the time as a spiritual mother and father to develop them into their spiritual parenthood.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:It's so good, Michael.
Speaker A:And you know, personally, here we are on the Sunshine coast in Australia, and we're in the process as of building a family and bringing people together.
Speaker A:And interestingly, one of our passions in and focuses in, in the near future is to actually develop people with those soft skills.
Speaker A:And I completely agree.
Speaker A:I, I feel that there are those who are in the marketplace, the business world, the.
Speaker A:Prof.
Speaker A:Whatever it may be, medical whatever it may be, this type of equipping and training will bring transformation and it's so powerful.
Speaker A:Okay, final question here.
Speaker A:And this is from Andrew, another Andrew, who says, who do you consider the parents or fathers and mothers within the local church in the family model, is it just the senior pastor, more of a pyramid corporate approach?
Speaker B:No, of course not.
Speaker B:Because again, you have to remember then the original mandates, okay, be fruitful, multiply fill the earth.
Speaker B:Fill the earth cannot happen without generational succession.
Speaker B:In other words, if you as a senior pastor are raising up that group of 15 to 20 emerging mothers and fathers, then ultimately they will start having increasing amounts of authority in the church by virtue of the fact that they're leading others as spiritual parents.
Speaker B:And then your, you become the organization becomes a flatter organization.
Speaker B:Okay, let me just tell you this, that a lot of people are building churches like this that are pyramidal entirely, like you're saying, Andrew.
Speaker B:And then the super spiritual ones try to invert that and say, oh no, it's all about the inverse, which is, you know, the pastors at the bottom being crushed by everybody.
Speaker B:No, neither of those is God's plan here is biblical leadership is not up or down.
Speaker B:It's this where the leaders are out ahead cutting a swath.
Speaker B:They're the ones out with the machete, creating the path so that others have an easier time moving into the fullness of God.
Speaker B:And so what, what I'm interested in is if you're taking that time from the core outward and you're raising up those 15 potential or future mothers and fathers, and then you delegate that level of leadership to them where they're raising up others in different family type dynamics, then you're going to be actually creating not just a system of family, but a culture of family because it's, it has integrity to the very core of your church.
Speaker B:You're, you're a spiritual mother or father who's actually raising up the next generation to be more important.
Speaker B:See, every church I've gone to, they say, well, our job is to, you know, create the ceiling that becomes the floor of the next generation.
Speaker B:Well, everybody says that, but almost no church that I've been to has a plan to do that.
Speaker B:Yeah, we need to actually create the, not just the, the program for that.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Programs are helpful.
Speaker B:We need to create the culture that produces that.
Speaker B:And we can talk more about culture in our next gathering.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So good.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And let me just add, for some of you guys who are actually maybe leading in a more unconventional model, maybe house, church or home groups, whatever it may be, understand that this is not, this meeting today or this zoom session isn't about just that church model where we have hundreds of people.
Speaker A:But this works obviously in any culture and it has to happen, or in any model it has to happen obviously, starting with those who are leading.
Speaker A:So it's a very powerful reality that we are the ones who are responsible to bring change to this culture.
Speaker A:So just, just in terms of moving forward, let me just say a couple things and then obviously, Michael, we want to hear from you regarding the resources, the training, the equipping that you have available to help those who are interested in really leaning in and implementing this.
Speaker A:You already mentioned it takes time, can take a good year and a half to really make this paradigm shift.
Speaker A:So what, what are some ways the viewers can connect?
Speaker B:Yeah, the best tool we have is, is the boot camp and we're actually launching another boot camp at the beginning of March.
Speaker B:So if you're interested, if you download the book that, that we have, you can actually, you can actually leave your email and we will let you know about the next boot camp that's coming up.
Speaker B:The other tool that you could download right away that has all the information in the boot camp in the form of a PDF that still is about the price of a cup of coffee is, is if you do pastorscoach.com book pastorscoach.com book and you'll see basically it's a 280 page workbook that is phenomenal.
Speaker B:It's, it's everything that we teach, 95 of what we teach, but it's all in that one document and you can get it and if you have the discipline, you can go through it and, and you don't even have to do the boot camp.
Speaker B:But, but most people don't have the discipline.
Speaker B:So it's helpful to have that 12 week process of us walking you through a set of steps that will lead you into the, the becoming the leader that God's called you to be.
Speaker B:So anyway, that's helpful, but I really strongly also want to feed back and just say, you know Glenn, thank you so much for even creating this opportunity, but really sign up for the, the, the, it's a forward slash Kingdom Reformation.
Speaker A:It's just.
Speaker A:Yeah, kingdom reformation.org thanks.
Speaker A:Yeah, kingdom reformation.organ and if you, you sign up, become a subscriber on our paid plan.
Speaker A:Right now it's $30 a month or $225 for the year in US and that's just for the next 24 hours.
Speaker A:The price goes up.
Speaker A:Not a lot, but it'll save you a good $50 a year or so.
Speaker A:So yeah, you'll get access to a lot of videos, podcasts, assessments, PDF books, tons of stuff guys.
Speaker A:And we've got some great guests coming in in the future as well, including Michael's going to be with us again.
Speaker A:So just head over to kingdom reformation.org and check it out and we'll give you Our paid subscribers will get access to the replay video as well from today's session.
Speaker A:Any comments, any closing remarks, Michael, that you'd like to make?
Speaker B:Yeah, I just feel like we are right now poised, as, you know, the Church of Jesus Christ to really be a fresh expression of the Kingdom of Heaven.
Speaker B:You know, I know that all of us are hungry for the next step.
Speaker B:I believe that we're on the verge of what could be the greatest outpouring of the Holy Spirit in church history.
Speaker B:I believe that God has said this both through the scripture as well as through different prophetic voices over the years.
Speaker B:I believe that this is a great, great time to be a leader in the body of Christ.
Speaker B:So I want to just challenge you.
Speaker B:Go in with all your might.
Speaker B:Spend time with Jesus at the deepest depths you can.
Speaker B:Align your heart with him as full as you can.
Speaker B:Rediscover your first love if you have lost it to any extent, and really position yourself, because I believe it's going to be all hands on deck when God pours out his spirit.
Speaker B:As most of us are anticipating, we're going to see a harvest that will actually blow us away.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And literally, we're going to need 10 million new pastors to pastor a billion soul harvest.
Speaker B:So I want to encourage you, make yourself ready, because God's about to do it.
Speaker A:So good.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:A lot of things going through my head right now, Michael, about that last statement.
Speaker A:10 million new pastors, that's obviously a tall order.
Speaker B:Scary.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:All right, well, thank you, everyone for joining us again.
Speaker A:My name is Glenn Blakeney.
Speaker A:This is a Kingdom Reformation leaders community.
Speaker A:We're so honored and blessed that you were able to be with us today again.
Speaker A:Our guest has been Dr.
Speaker A:Michael Broger.
Speaker A:And great time today, for sure.
Speaker A:Bless you guys.
Speaker A:Head over to kingdomreformation.org.
